# Is computer science a branch of mathematics?

I have been wondering, is computer science a branch of mathematics? No one has ever adequately described it to me. It all seems very math-like to me. My second question is, are there any books about computer science/programming that are very rigorous and take an axiomatic approach? Basically, putting computer science and programming on a rigorous foundation.

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If this was put to a vote, I'd probably be the only one voting that mathematics is a branch of computer science. – DanielV Jan 24 '14 at 0:28
@DanielV: I don't think you'd be the only one. – leftaroundabout Jan 24 '14 at 0:33
@user107952 : yes, theoretical computer science is practically a branch of mathematics. Check out their Stack Exchange. It is mostly concerned with studies of algorithms. There are oodles of books on the subject. One famous book is Papadimitriou's Computational Complexity, but it might not be the best place for a beginner to start. – Stefan Smith Jan 24 '14 at 2:36
@IsaacSolomon: Couldn't they vote to close saying this question belongs in math.stackexhange.com? – RghtHndSd Jan 24 '14 at 2:49
Everything is a branch of mathematics. – Lance Roberts Jan 24 '14 at 18:59

I think your first question has been answered eloquently by others here. I'd just like to add a group of references for your second question. As a math major / CS minor, I was taught CS by people in "Dijkstra's school", which I would consider more rigorously grounded in mathematics than Knuth's. To get a taste of Dijkstra's ideas, you can read all his articles, letters etc., in all their glorious idiosyncrasy, at http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/; a favourite of mine is The notational conventions I adopted, and why (EWD1300). An excellent introduction to his view of programming and computer science is:

This was the foundational book for me - really the only CS book for first year university. Kaldewaij is Dijkstra's academic grandchild, by the way.

I believe the following book may have similar content:

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I think a better (smoother), modernized version of Kaldewaij and Dijkstra's work is Eric Hehner's a Practical Theory of Programming. – user89 Jan 26 '14 at 5:52

the two fields of CS and mathematics are becoming increasingly intertwined especially on the theoretical side and once "more sharp" boundaries are getting blurred by various active/ongoing research programs and developments, and one would expect this trend to continue and heighten gradually over the long term, this century. possibly a whole essay, paper or book could be written on this subject. some examples/highlights where there are strong connections or overlap:

• automated theorem proving and its major successes/conquests eg the 4 color theorem. see eg a recent paper A fully automatic problem solver with human-style output of Fields medalist Gowers who collaborated with a computer scientist. he has a remarkable/unusual paper Rough structure and classification musing/predicting a sort of mathematical AI arising in the next century.

• Erdos is a figure who didnt really work in (T)CS directly per se but his "intensely combinatorical" research is given new life in TCS eg the probabilistic method, sunflower theorem, etc.

• P vs NP is a problem that was originally considered to be a CS problem but seems to have deep ties to combinatorics and extremal set theory. it is one of the Clay mathematics problems. in other words it was chosen by mainly an advisory board of elite mathematicians.

• the properties of undecidability found all over mathematics. the Matiyasevitch-Davis-Robbins-Putnam proof is striking and has computational proof mechanics. the Turing proof of undecidability and Godels proof share a common core mathematical structure

The halting theorem, Cantor's theorem (the non-isomorphism of a set and its powerset), and Goedel's incompleteness theorem are all instances of the Lawvere fixed point theorem

• experimental mathematics is a significant/emerging research program combining computer experiments and mathematical analysis.

• extremal combinatorics/set theory and extremal graph theory have applications in proving TCS algorithmic complexity lower/upper bounds.

• theorems that connect deep properties of one field to another are sometimes called "bridge theorems" and there are many between TCS/mathematics. some highlights mined from tcs.se:

• Mandelbrot is an example of another notable/pioneering figure who spans the divide between math/TCS eg with the study of fractals. worked at IBM research for 3½ decades. Chaitin, Shannon are other examples.

• RJ Lipton is an expert on the connections between math and TCS and has also given Godel credit as founding the basic concept of computational complexity theory in a 1956 letter to von Neuman ("Godels lost letter" when he mused on the limiting steps required by a machine to find proofs).

• more evidence of this trend can be found in science funding organizations/foundations such as the Simons Institute [founded by Phd mathematician Simons] and Clay Math foundations.

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If you create a Cayley graph of a group, is that mathematics? What if you simulate the orbit of an element from the group? Where do mathematical models cease to become mathematics? The natural numbers still behave the way they do in an accurate model of them when the model isn't being used by any person. The sole purpose of a computer is to model mathematical objects.

The goal of computer science is to construct or describe a model of mathematical objects, even if there's no implementation of them on any computer or way to get the result that the program is to compute.

Algorithms, ironically, are the aspect of computer science that has the most influence on other fields of mathematics.

A simple case is if you determine an algorithm's time complexity to be too great to actually implement, that is still a contribution to computer science. On the other hand, if you show two constructions are equivalent, say the clique decision problem and factoring large numbers, and there's an algorithm to do one of those things which is of lower time complexity, there must be an algorithm of that same complexity for the second property. The question is, how much information you can avoid obtaining about one problem from the information in the solution or exhaustion of another? The time complexity of an algorithm is an invariant measure of it that gives you a feel for how hard a problem is. When two problems are not equally hard, complex, or time consuming, the harder one cannot be solved using just the easier one's solutions (without those solutions being processed by an algorithm that closes the difference in complexity in the total algorithm). Studying different problems and their time complexities, you see how the genericness of a problem relates to its difficulty to be solved in general. It's also useful to see, for example, logic gates implemented as the solution to a game of Minesweeper, because it shows you what the properties of a Turing-complete system look and feel like.

However, these things can also be deceptive: Initially it might look like you must check every permutation of a type of object to find out what the subset of those permutations satisfy a property, which indicates a hard problem if those permutations grow quickly, say, with the size of the set of permutations. However, it might have a second stage where there's a saturation of independent information and the permutations tried no longer contribute just themselves to the solution of the problem, or else are all determined by the amount of information collected. Like reaching that minimum 3 points to determine a circle.

There are also theorems that characterize the type of data that are viable members of the search space. This is sort of a Mandelbrot program - use your eyes to see what solutions to the problem look like, find a way to enforce those characteristics, and show that they hold for all possible solutions. A good example of this is with projective planes, where the incidence diagrams for finite planes don't have enough symmetry to decide whether even large groups of arrangements which form partial matches are viable pieces of the incidence diagram or not, leading most algorithms to require orders of magnitude beyond the age of the universe to determine the projective planes of a given order, and even those that have managed to find a second stage require massive amounts of searching and weaving of the data together over years of actual runtime to come to a conclusion. The picture I'm painting here is not a success story, it's the reflection of a real lack of understanding of what incidence diagrams for projective planes are like, what rules govern them. An understood object should have an algorithm from the examination of which one can understand the difference between that object and pure noise, a strategy which works well enough to make guesses about the nature of the solutions. So are projective planes' incidence diagrams pure noise? Looking at the incidence diagrams for small planes, they look very distinctive, so the suggestion is that the typical plane looks nothing like any known plane. But in fact, that overall pattern can be induced in a binary matrix, and is shown to hold in planes in general, which means it's possible, starting from that characterization, to greatly reduce the problem's search space. Hence, characterizing the search space of a hard problem is a lot like characterizing the object itself through invariant properties.

I would say that problems relate to their complexity in much the same way as the positions of elements of an infinite set of natural numbers relates to the set's density.

But what is an algorithm? What is a program?

I refer you to Wikipedia for Martin-Loef type theory and Calculus of Constructions for some specific implementations of computation. For full coverage, Practical Foundations for Programming Languages (Harper). For a treatment of domain theory I refer you to Domain Theory in Logical Form (Abramsky).

One answer, given in domain theory by Scott domains, is that the logical structure of a program, as a space of properties and inferences, is like a lattice of subalgebras or normal subalgebras of an abstract algebra that doesn't need a head or abstract algebra containing them all, just a forked or flawed crystal converging to the space where it would be, and that to formulate recursive definitions of program logic is to find the fixed points of the endomorphisms of this order structure, which are equivalent to continuous maps onto itself of a topological space derived from this unfinished lattice. The Stone dual of this is the executed program operating according to this logic, which is a locale whose points are the algorithms. In actual domain theory you have to generalize this a bit, because Scott domains don't form a cartesian closed category, meaning they aren't enough like a topos for programs represented by Scott domains to be arbitrarily expressive.

All of this is a buried version of Lawvere's famous statement that there's a Galois connection between syntax and semantics. More specifically, between a theory and models of the theory, or between a logic and the space of computations it performs (denotational semantics).

On the other hand, there is the relationship between constructions of an object and proofs of a theorem. I don't know if this is the exact reasoning, but if you think about it if propositions can be converted to existential, simultaneously holding properties, then in aggregate they describe a kind of object whose definition is the thing which simultaneously holds those properties, so that to prove those propositions true is to prove the type is occupied by some actual thing. The Curry-Howard correspondence is a proof that proofs are equivalent to programs or constructions, and more generally that intuitionistic logics correspond to typed lambda calculi, and thence to cartesian closed categories (which agrees with how, for logicians, a topos is just the categories of sets for an intuitionistic logic). This affects language design quite a bit, because it provides a means of computing with proofs instead of algorithms. It is the basis for the philosophy of Homotopy Type Theory (Univalent Foundations Program), as well as much of intuitionistic logic and computer science.

There is some degree of interplay between linear logic (i.e. noncommutative geometry) and computer science here. Physics, Topology, Logic and Computation: A Rosetta Stone (Baez, Stay) shows that if you replace cartesian closed categories with closed monoidal categories, you can generalize the Curry-Howard isomorphism to get all sorts of wonderful quantum behavior and semantics. Stone duality features again in the study of Chu spaces, which are a model of linear logic that is ultimately pretty similar to Domain theory in effect.

So, if all this applies to intuitionistic logic, what's classical logic? It turns out certain implementations of continuation passing, like call/cc from Scheme, as well as introducing control flow passing or procedural programming into purely functional language like Haskell amounts to making it a nonconstructive logic. The thing that makes Haskell so bothersome (many say outright useless) is that you can't make a program communicate with the outside world or depend on outside communication, even runtime-dependent parameters, without full-stop breaking the format of the language to talk in procedures with the so-called IO monad, or else destroying all the built-in logic that verifies your program behavior. So the lesson is that non-constructive mathematics is like an interactive program, and constructive mathematics is like a library.

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"We apologize for the confusion, but we can't quite tell if you're a person or a script." – Loki Clock Jan 24 '14 at 9:31
Incidentally, it wasn't until the last year or two of learning about measure theory and some of its applications that I realized what made proofs about bounds, densities, or distributions mathematics and not just statistics. – Loki Clock Jan 24 '14 at 9:43
I did not criticize computer science, the internet, or masturbation. I criticize your philosophic post which conveys nothing to the reader despite the use of a thousand words. It was written for your pleasure only. – Apprentice Queue Jan 25 '14 at 6:53
@ApprenticeQueue What it was meant to convey was the relationship between computer science and the rest of mathematics in areas selected to give the basic scope of the field, where possible using topics I've studied myself so that I could provide references I was confident to recommend, together with references on topics that I might not know all about, but which might be of interest to both mathematicians and those interested in the foundations of programming. Do you feel that I didn't accomplish this, or do you think this is not the way to go about addressing the question? – Loki Clock Jan 26 '14 at 0:10
@ApprenticeQueue I think you're on to something here: the internet is a branch of computer science, which is a branch of mathematics, which is a branch of pleasure, which is a branch of masturbation. Everything is therefore a branch of masturbation, the internet being the most pure form. – michael_n Jan 27 '14 at 3:45

I would say that computer science is a branch of mathematics.

Donald Knuth is a famous computer scientists and is also considered a great mathematician. He wrote a series of books called "The Art of Computer Programming" which is extremely rigorous and mathematical.

Edit:

To make my position more clear since it is apparently controversial.

Almost all of computer science is about answering two questions: "What can a turing machine do?" and "How do we make a turing machine do X?". A Turing machine is an abstract mathematical object and any question about Turing machines or their capabilities will be mathematical in nature.

Now, we have implemented Turing machines in various ways (e.g. your PC), but the details of the particular implementation are the subject of computer engineering, not computer science.

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Vanessa Mae is a famous violinist, and also an olympic alpine skier. Would you thus say music is a branch of sports? – leftaroundabout Jan 24 '14 at 0:24
I mentioned Donald Knuth not as proof that computer science is a branch of mathematics but to answer the OP's second question about a book which has a "very rigorous axiomatic approach to computer science/programming". – Spencer Jan 24 '14 at 0:27
I don't think a turning machine has anything to do with Human Computer Interaction. Nor does it have much to do with system design. I think you are tacitly assuming "computer science = theoretical computer science". – RghtHndSd Jan 24 '14 at 2:46
Technically your PC isn't a Turing machine, as it does not have infinite storage. – OrangeDog Jan 24 '14 at 10:58
@corsiKa xkcd.com/435 EVERYTHING is applied mathematics, from some points of view ;) – Renan Jan 24 '14 at 18:42

Theoretical computer science could certainly be considered a branch of mathematics. This branch of computer science deals with computers and computer programs as mathematical objects. Theoretical computer scientists could be described as computer scientists who know little about computers.

However, when people say "computer science" they usually include many things which would not be considered mathematics, for instance computer architecture, specific programming languages, etc.

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+1 for your last sentence/paragraph. – Stefan Smith Jan 24 '14 at 2:37
I remembered this quote which I read somewhere: "Computer science is as much about computers as Astronomy is about telescopes" – Kartik Jan 24 '14 at 9:38
@Kartic -- Edsger Dijkstra – OrangeDog Jan 24 '14 at 10:57
@SpYk3HH I've done my share of coding, thank you. How much math have you studied? (Not that it's relevant.) Mathematicians have a different conception of what "math" is (it certainly isn't "long word problems"). In any case, I am happy that you are such a proficient programmer. – Bruno Joyal Jan 24 '14 at 14:41
@NemesisX00 Yeah, but so is figuring out when to turn right on red. That's about as specific as saying "Computer Science is doing stuff." – David Lively Jan 24 '14 at 22:02

For a rigorous approach inspired by Bourbaki, you may be interested in Alexander Stepanov and Paul McJones's Elements of Programming (2009).

It works with a subset of C++, and proves various interesting theorems. But not all propositions have proofs (e.g., the first two lemmas do not have proofs given).

The authors apparently wanted to work in the "Axiomatic method", which seems to be the OP's interest...

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Books such as Hopcroft and Ullman ("Introduction to Automata Theory, Languages, and Computation"), or Li and Vitanyi ("An Introduction to Kolmogorov Complexity and Its Applications") are also quite rigorous. But the question is not very clear what exact material the question is asking about - "computer science" is not on its own a topic of a book. – Carl Mummert Jan 24 '14 at 17:10
@CarlMummert: true, but I figured everyone else would give rigorous books related to the formal field "the theory of computation", like the ones you noted. So, I wanted to just note there's a programming book that uses the axiomatic method :) – Alex Nelson Feb 4 '14 at 0:12

That depends on whether you consider software engineering to be computer science. I don't. The theory of computation is absolutely a branch of mathematics, and one of the most difficult. Forget P vs. NP, we can't even decide the Collatz conjecture, which can be understood by the average third-grader in a minute or two.

On the other hand, software engineering is applied psychology: how do we economically build and maintain complex software systems, given the limits of human intellect?

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Many people would not consider the Collatz conjecture a part of computer science. – Jeppe Stig Nielsen Jan 24 '14 at 10:59
@JeppeStigNielsen: Why not? Is the halting problem a part of computer science? The Collatz conjecture is about a computation, and illustrates that the halting problem is more than just a theoretical curiousity. – kevin cline Jan 24 '14 at 15:22

It is not uncommon to hear ideas along the lines that

• computer science is computer programming without practical constraints

• theoretical computer science is computer science without physical constraints

• mathematics is computer science without finiteness constraints

Each subject in the chain is seen as a limiting case of the one before, where some parameter describing constraints or resource limits goes to zero or infinity. From this point of view, mathematics is degenerate special case of theoretical computer science, which is a degenerate case of computer science, which is ...

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TCS uses plenty of limit-based (no finite constraints) math to do asymptotic run-times and so on. Look at the recent book by Robert Sedgwick (he wrote a famous book with the title 'Algorithms' and Knuth supervised his phd about the complexity of quicksort) - it's about fancy complex analysis techniques of all things! – Peter Sheldrick Jan 24 '14 at 2:56
TAOCP volume 2 has a chapter about formal power series... – Peter Sheldrick Jan 24 '14 at 3:02
TCS considers asymptotics of finite processes. It does not, for example, use (usually) the concept of an computation process that produces its output after infinitely many steps. But the latter is standard in mathematics. Asymptotic analysis is essentially inductive proofs of inequalities that hold for all finite $n$ and it is rare for this to require anything more than Peano Arithmetic (ie, a theory of finite sets). – zyx Jan 24 '14 at 3:09
"From this point of view, mathematics is degenerate special case of theoretical computer science" -- or another way, theoretical computer science is mathematics with finiteness constraints and hence the relationship is the other way round. Depends whether you treat infinity as an actual thing (in which case TCS is the subset) or just an axiom in the manipulation of finite formulae (in which case mathematics is) :-) – Steve Jessop Jan 24 '14 at 10:19
Some branches of CS do deal with infinite processes. For example, infinite data structures come up in PL research and we end up with a bunch of tools for dealing with them like coinduction and bisimulation. Similarly, we also deal with models for continuous sets. This comes in FRP, for example, where the semantics are based on continuous time. – Tikhon Jelvis Jan 25 '14 at 2:46

Any science, whether it is physics, computer science, or statistics, is driven forward by a combination of engineering "this usually works" and mathematics "this can be proved to be true under certain assumptions".

I would say there is mathematics in computer science, but computer science has elements which are not yet mathematics.

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Let $C$ and $M$ be the set of all things which are considered "computer science" and "mathematics", respectively. If I understand you correctly, your question is: Is $C\subset M$?

If this is the case, your question is not well posed because neither $C$ nor $M$ are well defined. How do you draw the line between what is math and what is not math without ambiguity? No reasonable answer can be given if you try to treat them as sets.

However, I do believe that $C\cap M\neq \varnothing$ because certain aspects of both "sets" are shared, as others have pointed out (e.g. logic, proofs, etc.)

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Most things in life are not well-defined and therefore most questions we ask are not well-posed, but they're still worth asking. :) I would say $C \not\subset M$ because computer science asks questions such as "What computations are feasible in universe?" that depend on physical laws, not just abstract mathematics. – Jair Taylor Jan 24 '14 at 8:15
I love how you can express statements so precisely with Sets. – aditya menon Jan 24 '14 at 8:43
is the 'subset' relation the same as a 'branch'? I think your answer is an oversimplification and equates 'subset' with 'branch' when it shouldn't. – sashang Jan 24 '14 at 10:12
Your break down, while seemingly logical, is far overanalyzed and ignores the fact that computer science has a definition. By standard it is the study of the principles and use of computers, however a full logical breakdown will show you it is more of the scientific approach to computed calculation or information processing, thus still leaving it heavily indoctrinated with math. To define the term by its individual word meanings is like defining a flower by only it's petals and pistols, independently. It just doesn't make logical sense. – SpYk3HH Jan 24 '14 at 14:07
@SpYk3HH I agree. There is a point where reductionism becomes fruitless. – Apprentice Queue Jan 24 '14 at 19:12

Of course, computer science is part of mathematics and not the other way around. Why? Take away all the math out of computer science and computers and what do you get? Nothing but metal. Take away all the computer science out of math and what do you get? Math without Boolean Algebra and Binary Numbers. Math will still have the decimal number system.

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and decimal number system is different from binary system by what? 8 extra symbols? – Pita Jan 24 '14 at 8:04
I would say that Math without these very important basis would be more Physics than Math. It wouldn't have its most crucial ground. – Pierre Arlaud Jan 24 '14 at 9:27
Note that Boole died in 1864, it's only with hindsight that you might call Boolean algebra "computer science" as opposed to "logic". Now, whether "logic" is a branch of mathematics or a branch of philosophy, or both, or neither, is this same game all over again :-) But I wouldn't say that if you take away CS you necessarily have to take Boole with it. – Steve Jessop Jan 24 '14 at 10:38
@iconoclast: agreed. It's relatively easy to say that botany is a "branch" of biology (do you see what I did there) because both are fairly well defined by their subject matter. But it's an open issue on this question whether "CS" should even mean theoretical computer science or whether it also includes software engineering, UI design and who knows what, which pretty clearly aren't a "branch" of mathematics. Except possibly in the sense that you can mathematically model anything with greater or lesser success, but that's often just arithmetic :-) – Steve Jessop Jan 24 '14 at 16:18
@JohnS: if I'm understanding your reasoning correctly (and I may not be) then by the same logic couldn't you say that cooking is a branch of mathematics? Take the math away from cooking and all you have is a lot of food rotting on the counter. – iconoclast Jan 24 '14 at 16:55

Computer Science touches a lot of different areas of study, and Mathematics is one of them.

I would probably reword the idea to say that Computer Science involves Mathematics. Computer Math is a specialized field because the way computers have been designed has created a focus on mathematics involving Base 2, 8 and other number systems, and a focus on Algorithm designed and efficient use of algorithms.

The study of Cryptology is almost 100% mathematics.

I think of Computer Science as Mathematics with a whole bunch of Application and O/S development mixed in.

I think Computer Science is really a Branch of Engineering. Now whether Engineering is a branch of Mathematics, or whether Mathematics is a branch of Engineering will entirely depend on your perspective and your definitions of both. Because Mathematics is a system of tools, or an abstracted view of accounting for things, I would say Math is more of a branch of Language, and a tool for Engineering and Science.

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Engineering isn't mathematics. Engineering is "find a good enough way of doing foo in practice" (for some fuzzy definition of "good enough"). Mathematics is (supposed to be) about rigurous, logical proof relating completely abstract objects. – vonbrand Jan 24 '14 at 13:17

I say that computer science is a branch of mathematics, but it has many branches connected to other sciences or fields of study as well. Many of the founding contributors to the field were mathematicians. The analogy of a musician to sports has no bearing because the person's sports accomplishments weren't necessarily any by-product of this person's musical talents. Computer science was fostered from mathematical carving.

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### Is Computer Science a branch of mathematics?

In my opinion it is not. It's true that it uses nearly every aspect of mathematics. And heavily depends on Logic. But the questions posed are way different then the ones in mathematics.

In mathematics you normally try to understand the structure of objects and try to categorize them. Mostly it is totally unnecesairy if they are easy to compute or not. For example the Algorithm for a determinant of a $n\times n$ matrix is given by $\sum_{\sigma \in S_n} a_{1\sigma(1)}\cdots a_{n\sigma(n)}$ this formula is highly usefull in mathematics, calculating this is nearly impossible with $|S_n| = n!$. So this formula says a lot about the structure of matrices but it says nothing about how to compute it.
So the main work of a mathematician is bending your brain till you got a prove for your problem.

You got these kind of problems in computer science too. But normally you want a solution that is fast and precise not perfect. It does also contain parts like Software engineering which are not mathematical at all.
Or the theory behind building a computer which is part of eletrical engineering.
Also it needs a lot of parts of mathematics in various areas without really needing the tiny proves and lemmas and axioms you depend on in math.

For me it's like physics, all written down in the language of math. But still knowing math will not help you at all! I mean you could also ask if chemistry is just part of physics as it heavily relies on it. Or biology beeing part of chemistry because it also heavily depends on it.

But I guess there are a lot different opinions. I always felt that I have to bend my brain differently if I want to solve problems in computer science. And that a lot mathematicians can't really programm at all!

### Is there a good axiomatic Book

I've never read it myself but "The Art of Computer Programming" from Donald Knuth was often noted to be very good! Althought it is quite old.

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"But the questions posed are way different then the ones in mathematics." This is simply not true. How does a theorem such as the Halting theorem fit into your answer? It is mathematics, and deep mathematics at that. – Bruno Joyal Jan 24 '14 at 2:10
@BrunoJoyal, yes - it is just cantors diagonal argument in a different packaging (omg packaging is different! no longer hallowed maths!) – Peter Sheldrick Jan 24 '14 at 2:18
@BrunoJoyal: First off i just agreed with you, second i'm not a logician or in TCS (i do computer vision) but en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… second paragraph and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… sorry if i offended you by glossing over the finer details of foundational logic with 'different packaging'. – Peter Sheldrick Jan 24 '14 at 2:33
@PeterSheldrick I'm not offended at all. It seems I interpreted your comment as meaning the complete opposite of what you had in mind. Perhaps it's just me, in which case I'm sorry! (Perhaps a link to Poe's law is in order.) – Bruno Joyal Jan 24 '14 at 2:37
@BrunoJoyal: Sarcasm and the internet don't mix at the best of times, but i'm terrible at sarcasm even in rl! – Peter Sheldrick Jan 24 '14 at 2:52

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